My visit inside the Ground Zero Mosque
As Rosh Hashanah and Ramadan are in the news (not to mention the NFL Kickoff of the NFC Title Rematch between the Vikings and New Orleans Saints, including # 4 Brett Favre), some Jews and Muslims are hopeful that a peace process most sure to be a complete waste of time somehow turns out otherwise.
Before getting to the main event, I am forcefully condemning the decision by a Florida church to burn the Koran.
This is stupid, reckless, disgusting, and morally repugnant. I despise Radical Islam, but burning the Koran is an affront to the many decent Muslims worldwide who also hate Radical Islam.
Everybody from General David Petraeus to Bridgitte Gabriel has harshly criticized this potential act.
There is still time for the church to back down. They should.
Also, if they do burn the Korans, and the Middle East explodes in violence and murder, that violence and murder will be unjustified as well. Responding to the burning of books, no matter how awful, with killing human beings…the killing of humans is worse.
As for the burning of the Korans, just because somebody has the legal right to do something does not mean it is morally right. This brings us to the Ground Zero Mosque.
As 9/11 approaches, I decided to take a trip to see the Ground Zero Mosque for myself. I went with an open mind. This was done several days ago on September 2nd.
I stopped by Ground Zero first. The mosque never would have been an issue if ordinary New York bureaucracy and turf wars had been put aside and allowed something…anything…to be built in the 9 years since the deadliest attack on the America mainland in many of our lifetimes.
Nobody is questioning that the Ground Zero Mosque is legally allowed to be built. The issue is a moral one. Islam has a history of conquering lands and building mosques at sites of conquest. Many see this mosque as a celebration of an Islamofascist triumph on 9/11. The left is concerned about insensitivity toward Muslims. The insensitivity is being shown to the 9/11 families.
We also have no idea exactly who and how this mosque is being funded. If this was being funded cleanly, disclosure would have been done already.
I went to the building. It used to be a Burlington Coat Factory. You can still see those words in the cement, although the block letters have been removed.
The building is only four stories tall. It is perfectly big enough for a mosque the way it is. If it were to remain such a small size, opposition to the mosque might lessen. Yet the notion of tearing down the building and replacing it with a gigantic building will only harden the opposition.
There is an Irish pub nearby, and an Indian restaurant. Yet like the mosque building right now, they are all inconspicuous. The builders are going out of their way to build a building to attract attention.
I walked up to the building. A gigantically large man was inside, staring out at the public through a large glass front door. He looked like a bar bouncer. I asked him if it was permissible to come in. He granted that permission.
This man asked me to take off my shoes. I complied. Personally, I have zero problem with that request. This was not a public park. It was private property. I did not consider myself surrendering to the Caliphate. It was a matter of politeness. I ask people to remove their shoes when coming in my home, and I am not Muslim.
He then asked me to turn my pager off because people were praying. I again complied with his request, finding it reasonable and appropriate.
Then something dawned on me. If people were praying, that meant that the mosque already existed.
The debate has been over whether or not to build a mosque. People are arguing over whether or not to build a physical structure. Even if building the mega-mosque is defeated, there will still be Muslims praying in this location. I am not offering commentary on this, just pointing out a fact. A mosque already exists there.
The upstairs room I walked into was an empty room. There was one Muslim praying by himself. The rest of the room was barren.
As I prepared to walk downstairs, I heard voices. Any reasonable person would think that it was more Muslims praying. To my surprise, the Muslim “bouncer” who let me in the building forbade me from going downstairs.
I was stunned. I told him that I wanted to see the downstairs. He told me that the downstairs was exactly like the upstairs, and that I had seen everything I needed to see.
I did not want to mess with this guy. I came back to the front door, put my shoes on, and left.
Is it possible he was worried that I would disrupt the prayers? Sure.
Is it also possible he was hiding something?
Absolutely.
Liberals will say that I have no proof of any illegal or untoward behavior.
Yet what was this guy hiding?
I was there. I was in the building. I know the difference between an empty room and a room with people.
Is it possible Jihadists were plotting to blow up parts of New York?
Yes, it is.
They checked me when I came in. They saw I had no weapons. I did not have a camera.
(I could have taken pictures with my cellphone, but would not have done so unless I saw something illegal. To take pictures of people praying would have been disrespectful.)
There were several people downstairs. I heard the voices. There was only one of me. Had I done anything inappropriate, they would have easily outnumbered me.
What were they hiding?
If all I saw was people praying, I would have reported that.
Why would they have prevented me from seeing what was down there?
Liberals will also argue that they had every legal right to keep me from going downstairs.
For the umpteenth time, none of this is about legality. It is about morality.
This is not about the court of law. It is about the court of public opinion.
By not letting me downstairs, my suspicions have only deepened.
I came in biased, but open to being persuaded. Instead I felt intimidated, as a big Muslim man was prepared to beat me to a pulp if I set my non-Muslim body on his territory.
This did not close the issue or put anything to rest.
People with nothing to hide do not act like they are hiding something. If they are bluffing so I jump to incorrect conclusions, that is their fault, not mine.
(Think Saddam Hussein acting like he had WMD. Whether he lied or was truthful, he got what he deserved.)
The man could have gone with me. He could have watched me downstairs. He could have installed cameras to make sure I did not break any rules. If I did, he could have shown that to the world.
Whatever is going on at this Burlington Coat Factory, I can confirm that the Muslims in that downstairs room do not want outsiders to know about it.
This could be completely innocent.
It is not. It is every bit as mysterious as the downstairs room of a “restaurant” where “business” is being discussed that has nothing to do with the restaurant.
With every other culture, it would be permissible to ask questions. Answers could have put my concerns to rest. Instead, my worries about this project have deepened to a chasm that will not be bridged.
I was there. I saw…and didn’t see…everything I needed to see.
The Ground Zero Mosque should not be built.
Not now. Not ever.
eric
September 8th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
So, when this place officially becomes a “community center” as they claim it will be, will there still be secret rooms ?
I mean really, any private property can have a right to that privacy. What will be interesting is to see who comes and goes from these secret rooms in the future.
Wonder what would happen if Christian/Jewish community centers had rooms deemed off limits ?
September 8th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
It was probably some kind of Sufi ritual. The Sufis are a mysical and private bunch, so they were probably performing some mystic ritual. Sufism is sort of to Islam what Kabbalah is to Judaism. They probably just wanted some privacy. It’s probably kinda hard to meditate on personally interacting with God while visitors are mulling around you.
Micky, lots of Christian and Jewish centers, schools, churches and synagogues have private rooms.
JMJ
September 8th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
“Micky, lots of Christian and Jewish centers, schools, churches and synagogues have private rooms.’
yeah, as I said plenty of private properties billed as “community centers” reserve the right to have private rooms. Usually its the clerical and administrative offices which have signs saying “staff only”. Or rooms reserved for some type of counseling.
Not some door with a gorilla guarding it telling you “you’ve seen everything you need to see”.
As a guest speaker I’ve been to a million churchs, and community centers that loan their properties out for AA meetings once a week for a couple hours.
I’ve never been told that any room was off limits or that I couldnt go in it,unless it was an office….or the girls room.
I’m gonna say this the way Jersey would say it. Only because I’ll be stressing its my opinion and got the gospel golden rule of thought.
What these Muslims are doing is punk bullsht. And they know it.
And anyone who thinks otherwise is a complete idiot.
September 8th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
“kinda hard to meditate ”
yeah well, unfortunately Eric said he heard people talking.
Thats not very condusive to or representative of meditation
September 8th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Micky, I have no idea what was going on. I just know that a Sufi is a founder of this center. For all I know, he’s a freakin’ friggin’ Christian wierdo. You’re all friggin’ weirdos as far as I’m concerned.
JMJ
September 8th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
No more weird than the guy who told me he’d proved that God doesnt exist.
You can frown on those who believe in one God or another. But, the bottom line and real issue is this.
The majority of the worlds violent religious nutjobs are being produced by Muslims “today”.
Doesnt matter if its environmentalism or religion. People do in fact go ape sht nuts defending/over these beliefs.
Once again I’ll refer you to the South Park episode where the two Atheist Otter tribes got into a bloody war over what to call themselves after they merged.
I dont have to prove to anyone what I believe in. But I find it curious that every atheist I’ve debated has insisted hes right.
To say you dont know, or chose not to believe is respectable. But to tell me that I’m absolutely wrong is the height of “friggin wierd”
September 9th, 2010 at 2:46 am
I’m not taking sides on the dialogue above, and I understand there’s sometimes a fine line between “indicators” and paranoia… I wasn’t there so am not qualified to make that judgement… I will say, though, that many religions and “Houses of God” are quite territorial. My daughter and a friend went to a Catholic Mass a few months ago. Having been a member of different Baptist, Adventist, and Methodist churches, she was familiar with communion, so when it was offered, she went up to get the eucharist…since the Catholic’s rituals are a little different, she wasn’t sure exactly what to do, and she probably giggled in self-consciousness…and by not genuflecting when she went to sit down in the pew, she sent a red flag to the deacons or helpers…they converged on her and demanded she tell them what she did with the Eucharist because they wanted it back! They didn’t see her put it in her mouth, so they wanted it back, NOW! it took a while, but she and her friend convinced them they had ingested the Holy Eucharist… The “prayer room” in one of the churches we used to attend was open for people to go into and pray, but it wasn’t open to any Joe off the street…and I don’t think either the Catholics or the people of the aforementioned church are plotting take-over of the US…
September 9th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Of course they have something to hide, its right there, in their bible (Koran). Christians preach love and worthship of Jesus. Jews preach love of G-d himself. Muslims, well, read their suras. Its right there.
Christians and Jews have fought many wars over the years..but against their enemies. Jews are constantly fighting in the Torah (bible), but against enemies.
i have heard some Christians criticize Moses, saying he brought death and destruction to people. He also led his people out of bondage (”Let my people go”). He was the intermediary between Hashem (G-d) and the Israelites. He is a prophet, not a saint. Jews are never saints, just ordinary people. That’s why I am a Jew.
I don’t know and don’t care whether there is something to hide at the location? Someday, maybe the ….will hit the fan? If they are hiding WMD, woe to them..I mean its rubbing salt into an open wound. Why they
would build such a structure there is frankly beyond me? Okay, maybe
just 4 stories, as Eric suggested.
If Israeli Jews bombed the WTC, then US Jews (religious or otherwise) built a 20 story building (including a gym, conference room, shul, etc.) near the site…what would be the reaction?
Iran today said the Koran burning is a Zionist plot. Is anyone
condemning Iran (at the UN)? Are the leftist G-ds of the Jews complaining? Is Obama saying anything?
In the M.E., the Pales are demanding Israel cave in prior to the discussions ( no building in the settlements, the 67 borders, Arab East Jerusalem part of Pales state, an army, AND Israel a secular state, for all its people ( including 5m Arabs).
Yes, and the sun revolves around the Earth., taxes don’t exist and
death is not certain.
From the M.E., to Florida ( are Jews and Christians allowed to bring their bibles into the Muslim countries?), there is a double standard folks.
Or as Tony Blair said, there is a radical movement which wants
everything we hold dear, destroyed.
But don’t tell that to the people building the mosque or those that will
riot and murder Jews and Christians over a small church’s burning of a
few books. This is not like the “burning of the booiks” in Germany as some have suggested. Those books burned were the greatest works of the greatest Jewish minds..in music, art, medicine, science, etc. They preceded
the burning of 11m people.
The ill-informed preacher in Florida, wants to just send a signal..
we will not accept Islamic fascism…never, never, never.
Hmmm, is there something to hide at the WTC site?
September 9th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Micky, atheism does not mean pacifism, nor does it tell you anything about the politics of the non-believer. Atheism simply means an absense of belief in God. That’s it. The South Park episode was making the point that, regardless of religious belief, people will still act like people.
This gets to why Dav Lev, and others like him (Pastor Jones, for instance), is so utterly wrong about the nature of Islam and its relationship to terrorism. These Middle Easterners could be atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindis, whatever, they would probably still be acting the same way. Studies have shown that suicide bombers, for example, are probably depressed and suicidal anyway. That’s why they are recruited in the first place. The Koran quite explicitly forbids suicide, the penalty being an eternity of suffering death in the same manner as the suicide was accomplished. Suicide, in the Muslim world, is therefore extremely rare. The demagogic leaders of the modern terror movement had to create a twisted legalistic argument to show that suicide is okay if done for the glory of Allah. Ironically enough, they used the example of the Christian martyrs of yore to prove their horrible point.
Religion is rarely the underlying cause of most of the world’s problems, but it makes a convenient excuse for reacting irrationally to those problems. The problem with religion is that it is inherently irrational, and that irrationality can snowball into all sorts of more irrationality. Religion is not the only irrational thing people pursue. There are lots of irrational behaviors and beliefs among human beings. But religion is undoubtedly one of those irrational pursuits.
JMJ
September 9th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
“Micky, atheism does not mean pacifism, nor does it tell you anything about the politics of the non-believer. Atheism simply means an absense of belief in God. That’s it. The South Park episode was making the point that, regardless of religious belief, people will still act like people.”
Nice try, but the accurate point is that its human nature to defend your beliefs, be a belief in the abssense og God.
For some reason these atheist morons are much much much more determined to prove to me there is no God than I am to prove to them there is one.
“is so utterly wrong about the nature of Islam and its relationship to terrorism. These Middle Easterners could be atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindis, whatever, they would probably still be acting the same way. ‘
NO.
That doesnt work one bit in the face of the fact that Islam is producing the vast majority of radical religious nut jobs in the world today.
I’ve had this debate a million times now. The facts have been displayed by me over the years time and time again showing the majorities of Muslims in Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan who support honor killings, Sharia, Bin Laden.
I pasted Erics whole post over at Right Pundits today and backed it with my comments representing much the same opinion. I got standing ovations from both sides of the aisle.
You’re wrong.
http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=7194&cp=all#comments
“Studies have shown that suicide bombers, for example, are probably depressed and suicidal anyway’
Studies my a$$. Its a learned indoctrinated behavior as with any religion
“they used the example of the Christian martyrs of yore to prove their horrible point.’
Yeah, “YORE” being the key word here. These a$$hats need to catch up with the times as has most every other religion.
Can you imagine what the world would look like today if Christians or Americans got violent everytime somewhere someone burned a bible or an American flag /
HUH ?
the world population would of dropped 25%
Who else is running around cutting people to pieces in the streets over a fricking cartoon ?
Whos beheading reporters ? Whos calling for genocide ?
The majority of religious a$$hats on this planet are being produced bt Islam, “today”. PERIOD !
And it might just be me but mainstrean muslims just dont seem to give enough of a sht.
I want to be tolerant of these people and their religion. But the last few years have made this increasingly difficult as it would be really nice to see them put out their own possies and deal with the shts that are tarnishing them
At a certain point one can only wonder of what were seeing is passive aggresiveness like not telling your rival neighbor his house just caught fire, letting it burn to the ground with him in it before you pick up the phone.
I myself would do everything I could to stop the mosque, but if everyones going to get physically violent over either a concrete structure or some paper and ink then you fricking idiots deserve what you’ve got coming
September 9th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
“But religion is undoubtedly one of those irrational pursuits.”
heh, and liberalism isnt ?
September 9th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Micky,
Atheism isn’t a belief. It requires no faith, expresses no tenets, has no rituals or clergy. Atheism is explicitly a lack of faith, a lack of “belief.” Where you got the South Park episode wrong was that the various groups were not fighting over atheism, but rather their different interpretations of science and its place in their lives. In that episode, science replaces religion. For an atheist, that is not necessary - possible, sure, but not necessary.
I don’t know what atheists you know, but you, like me, are an argumentative person, and so its perfectly understandable that you make a for fun arguiment about religion. Most atheists I know do not care all that much about the beliefs of others, though we do often try to call people out on their irrationalities when we feel they are hurting themselves or others. When religion does good, and it often does, the atheist attitude tends to be, “Hey, whatever works!”
To say, “that Islam is producing the vast majority of radical religious nut jobs in the world today,” is both wrong on the face of it and wrong in its implication. First, the vast majority of the world is religious, and the vast majority of nutcases are too, regardless of the particular religion. Secondly, yes, most terrorists are Muslim, but then most Muslim people happen to come from one of the worst, most corrupt, most poorly politically designed plaxces on the Earth - the Middle East. Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim country, does not have much of a terrorist problem. It is not in the Middle East. Also, honor killing long predates Islam in all the places it happens. So, you are provably wrong in every way on that one, regardless of who’s dumb enough to applaud such a geo-politically, historically ignorant assertion.
It is well known that in Muslim societies depression is considered a sign of weak faith. It is looked down upon and those suffering its effects must repress their depression and hide it, only further aggravating its effects. I’m sorry you don’t know that, but it’s a fact and you should look it up instead of appearing utterly ignorant of it.
Americans do get violent over stupid %$#@ - all the time. We are among the most violent people on the planet. We kill each other far more than the terrorists ever could. That you don’t know - or refuse to admit - that shows yet again that you are simply not paying attention, or, more likely, simply refuse to acknowledge reality when it opposes your epistemology.
“The majority of religious a$$hats on this planet are being produced bt Islam, “today”. PERIOD !”
NO. The majority of “terrorists” are Islamic, yes, but the majority of idiotic, irrational, stupid, backwards, misogynistic, lunatic, superstitious, ridiculous “a$$hats” are religious. I’ll agree with that.
JMJ
September 9th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
“Atheism isn’t a belief.’
Nice try, but if you’re going to be that much of a bullshter then the conversation is over.
You believe God does not exist.
THAT MY MAN IS A BELIEF !
September 9th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Every religion holds the propensity and potential to breed radicalism.
Islam holds more potential and foundation to breed violence and radicalism than any other religion for the simple fact that adherance is enforced by violence and oppression.
“Most atheists I know do not care all that much about the beliefs of others, ‘
Then I suggest you and the rest of the countrys atheists all stop peeing yourselves eveytime a cross pops up or some politician utters the “G” word.
Y’all want freedom from something you believe doesnt exist…thats dumber than believing in the spaghetti monster.
“oh, beware, theres people who believe they have something other than themselves to answer to.”
(except the ones like me dont call the ACLU or chop your freeking head off everytime were exposed to conflicting beliefs.
“It is well known that in Muslim societies depression is considered a sign of weak faith. ”
What huge load of crap.
If these people had such “weak faith” they’d topple their theocratic dictatorships that they obviously defend to the death.
You’re flailing bro, you’re drowning in BS.
Seriously
“Americans do get violent over stupid %$#@ - all the time. We are among the most violent people on the planet. ‘
Different argument.
Answer my question.
What do you think the world would look like if Christians and Americans killed someone or called for genocide everytime a flag or bible was burned ?
September 9th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
“NO. The majority of “terrorists” are Islamic, yes, but the majority of idiotic, irrational, stupid, backwards, misogynistic, lunatic, superstitious, ridiculous “a$$hats” are religious. I’ll agree with that.’
Soooo… terrorists are not the majority of idiotic, irrational, stupid, backwards, misogynistic, lunatic, superstitious, ridiculous, a$$hats on the planet ?
I mean after all, I dont see Christians marrying 9 year olds, legally beating their wives, calling for genocide and holocausts, killing those who stray from the faith, public stoning, creating the most 3 world pi$$ pots ever in history, ???
September 9th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
“Where you got the South Park episode wrong was that the various groups were not fighting over atheism, but rather their different interpretations of science and its place in their lives. In that episode, science replaces religion. ”
Wrong…again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_God_Go
“In the year 2546, the entire world is atheistic and dedicated to rationality and science. Atheism is divided into several denominations.”
“denominations”
Different breeds of Atheism bro. Just like the two scientific communities that are fighting over gerbil warming
Try again
September 9th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Micky,
Again, to NOT believe something is NOT a belief. You’re positing a negative and that’s just plain wrong - and, if you ask me, rather sleazy. you’re welcome to your beliefs, but please don’t impose them on me. I don’t hold such beliefs, and I don’t think it’s fair to be told that I must have a belief just because you have one.
JMJ
September 10th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
You “BELIVE” it doesnt exist.
Keep denying it, go ahead. But if you persist you’ll look out of the park idiot next to those you call weird.
“but please don’t impose them on me. ”
never happened. WTF are you talking about ?
What are you so afraid of ? It doesnt exist, right ?
Ohh, I get it. Its those who believe that are the threat. Well, that works both ways buddy.
My belief is that a bunch of morons accountable only to themselves are more dangerous than believers.
September 10th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Micky, I don’t “believe” anything about God. I’ve never seen any substantive proof that God does exist, so I don’t believe in God. To not believe something is not to believe something is not. For all I know, there is a God. I just have never seen any proof. Do you understand what I’m saying?
I’m not afraid of anything about the idea of God, other than the possiblity that one day Christian fundamentalists might take over the country and kill people like me. But I think that’s unlikely.
I don’t know what you mean by “people who are accountable only to themselves.” I know there are some atheists, like Objectivists (who are conservative libertarians, by the way), who do live by such ridiculously personalized, individualistic values, but all the atheists I know are ethical, decent people who abide the Golden Rule, understand “what comes around goes around,” and are communal participants of society.
I think you just don’t have the slightest idea what an atheist really is! What I can’t figure out is how one can be a “Christian” and not share the values of the common atheist!
JMJ
September 11th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
‘I think you just don’t have the slightest idea what an atheist really is! What I can’t figure out is how one can be a “Christian” and not share the values of the common atheist!’
Its pretty simple.
I dont believe there is no God.
You do
October 4th, 2010 at 2:23 am
[...] it is has also regularly been asked by mainstream media talking heads who question opponents of the Ground Zero Mosque. Do I want to hurt them or discriminate against their civil rights are often the questions that are [...]