A Jewish Debate About 2008
I had the pleasure recently of attending a political debate at Beth Haverim Synagogue in Agoura Hills, a city located within an hour’s drive of my home in Los Angeles. I have never been to this city, but the debate made the trip worth it.
The Synagogue wanted their congregants to see the liberal and conservative perspectives with regards to the 2008 election. I give this particular temple credit for even acknowledging that a perspective that is not liberal actually exists. Many synagogues in Los Angeles have yet to discover this. Perhaps because I was technically outside the heart of Los Angeles, open-mindedness was found.
Representing the liberal perspective was Andrew Lachman, who is affiliated with the Los Angeles Chapter of Democrats For Israel. The conservative viewpoint was presented by Larry Greenfield, who is the Executive Director of the California Region of the Republican Jewish Coalition.
For the sake of full disclosure, Larry is a dear friend of mine. For those that wish to accuse me of bias, I am a conservative blogger. Fairness does not mean neutral. I am supposed to be biased.
Rather than provide analysis, I shall allow the descriptive nature of the debate speak for itself.
LG Opening Statement:
“Happy Lag B’omer, and Happy Memorial Day.”
“600,000 Jews fought in World War II.”
“Islamic Jihad is about financial Jihad and religious Jihad.”
“It is the left that disparages the military. Dick Durbin compared our soldiers to the Khmer Rouge. John Kerry said that our troops are dumb, and that those who flunk out of school end up in Iraq.”
“This is not your father’s democratic party.”
“The left wing blogs contain most of the antisemitism. Anti-zionism runs wild on college campuses.”
“We should care about the downtrodden. However, we should also ask what actually works.”
“30% of Jews are prepared to vote republican in 2008, and we could even get 40%.”
“Republicans have a tested Pro-Israel veteran. Democrats have a rookie who brings concerns.”
AL Opening Statement:
“Even most republicans think that President Bush botched the war.”
“President Bush was the one who came out in favor of a Palestinian state.”
“Our current policies have made Israel less safe.”
“Barack Obama has 20 years of experience, which is the same as what Bill Clinton had when he ran.”
“The experience level of military service is not equal to how great a President will be.”
“Obama has been endorsed by Lee Rosenberg, the head of AIPAC, as well as Congressmen Henry Waxman and Howard Berman.”
“Obama wants divestment from Iran, and is anti-Hamas. The current Congress is the most Pro-Israel Congress in history.”
LG: “The democrats in the 1970s defunded human intelligence. They were wrong on missile defense.”
“Obama is against the Israeli security fence. He has a naive and left wing world view.”
“Obama would not name the Iran Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization.”
“He has had bad judgment regarding Pastor Wright. He has surrounded himself by people who are left wing and anti-Israel. Until she was forced out due to media pressure, he was advised by Samantha Power.”
“Things will be worse for Jews than the entire Carter period if Obama is elected.”
AL: John McCain initially said that he would appoint James Baker to negotiate, and we all remember what James Baker had to say about Jews.”
“Obama listens to people. McCain is supported by Pastor Hagee. Pastor Hagee is one of many Christians who support Israel because they want to convert us all.”
“McCain is against all earmarks. Aid to Israel is an earmark.”
“McCain waffles on torture, and on his description of Evangelicals.”
“Dialogue does not necessarily mean face to face discussions.”
“McCain will bring us right wing judges, and he will NAFTAize healthcare.”
LG: “Obama has also spoken warmly about James Baker.”
The republican idea is the American idea, that free markets work best, and help middle Americans.”
“People in Canada, England, and Germany die waiting for coverage.”
“Republicans stand for tort reform and medical liability reform. Lawsuits are the problem. OBGYNs have been driven out of Arkansas.”
“We spent 30 billion on oil in the 1970s, and were spending 100 billion on oil by 9/11. We are approaching spending 300 billion on oil.”
“We could drill in Alaska. It would take three planes and a snowmobile to get there. There are no birds there. There is no wildlife.”
“Obama’s campaign is about taxes on everybody, because liberals know what is best for everybody.”
“Investment funds are fungible. When people are overtaxed, they leave. America has the second highest corporate tax rate among industrialized nations, ahead of Japan.”
AL “Tax breaks have failed. Exxon is the most profitable company in the world.”
“Japan is beating us in the sales of hybrids.”
“McCain has a zero percent rating from the Sierra Club.”
“McCain was hypocritical in how he handled Cindy McCain’s drug problem. She got treatment while others go to jail.”
(This was a cheap shot, akin to Kerry and Edwards going after Mary Cheney. I spoke to Mr. Lachman after the debate and let him know. He was a nice guy, and while he initially tried to defend his remark, when I told him it was also a loser of a strategy because people would flock to Cindy McCain’s defense, he agreed. I recommended he stop using it, and he did agree. Of course, saying somehting is unwise is not the same as saying it is just wrong, but he was reasonable in hearing me out.)
“Most faith based money goes to Christians, because they put Bush in office. Only one percent of that money goes to Jewish groups.”
LG: “Democrats and republicans spend too much. When republicans try to cut spending, interest groups complain.”
“As for faith based programs, Jewish liberals simply do not apply for faith based money. They should ask for it, but it runs counter to their beliefs.”
“70% of our budget goes towards Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. 4% goes towards the war. It is entitlements, not the war, that is bankrupting our country.”
Questions were asked, and I decided to ask my question in a way that would catch Mr. Lachman off guard.
“How much money is too much to spend on a war that is completely lost, with people dying every day, with drugs and guns destroying things? At what point do we say that we have failed, and not give one more penny to Chicago, Detroit, other inner cities, and every public school, all of which have been run into the ground by liberals? How much is too much money to be spent on these failed war zones?”
(I love it when liberals think my question is about Iraq, and they prepare to agree with me, until I throw my curveball)
AL: “The problem with education is not that it has been administered badly by the left. The problem is that starting with Ronald Reagan, it has been strangled financially by the right. The right has cut budgets for cities, and they have suffered. It is not the left failing. It is the right strangling things.
LG: Ronald Reagan followed the example of JFK and cut taxes. Democrats today raise taxes, and people simply leave. Democrats want to tax the internet.”
“With regards to the war, Saddam Hussein is gone. The man who paid $25,000 to the family of every Palestinian suicide bomber is now dead thanks to this war.”
AL: When Clinton was President, Israel talked to Jordan. With Bush, the Iraq war strengthened Iran, which threatens Israel.”
“Democrats For Israel believe in clemency for Jonathan Pollard. He has served long enough.”
“We have to change the tone, and end the noise about such things such as Pastors. Obama can change the tone.”
LG Closing Statement:
“This election is the American Hero versus the American Idol.”
“When Kennedy talked with Kruschev, and Reagan talked with Gorbachev, there were tough stances taken before talks commenced. When Gorbachev acknowledged that Reagan would outspend him and bankrupt the USSR, only then did Reagan agree to talk.”
“The Chablis and Brie crowd continues to be rejected by Reagan Democrats.”
“McCain went to Sderot. He made it clear that if there were ever attacks at America coming from the U.S. Southern border, he would immediately stop them. I sreal has the right to do the same.”
“Talk to Colonel Bud Day. When he was captured and tortured, his arms were out of place. He told John McCain to break his arms so that could be reattached and grow back properly. McCain did not want to break his friend’s arms, but he did, and then reattached them properly. Today Colonel Bud Day is 84. He has the use of his arms, and he still flies. This is the kind of man John McCain is. He does not publicly talk about these episodes in his life because that is the man he is. He is the opposite of an arrogant upstart from Harvard Law.”
AL Closing Statement:
“There is a new way of doing things.”
“This is a choice between the far right and the American people. This is about which party meddled in the Terry Schaivo matter.”
“This is about corruption and the politics of the 1900s vs the future.”
“The GOP has gotten away from Tikkun Olam.”
“This election is about tolerance vs those who believe in the private sector and leaving people behind.”
Despite the fact that Mr. Lachman is smart, the issue still remains that democrats have no credibility on how they would handle Iraq when they cannot even handle an American city.
Blaming George W. Bush is typical, but blaming Ronald Reagan is a stretch. Liberals are failing 25 years later because of Reagan? Yeah, that is a great way to be held accountable.
Detroit is run by liberals. It has been run into the ground. New York City was dying until Rudy Giuliani took over for David Dinkins. Kathleen Blanco cried, Ray Nagin blamed white racism, and Haley Barbour rolled up his sleeves, and got the job done. San Francisco is so far gone that more people live now in San Jose.
People are fleeing Massachusetts for New Hampshire, and escaping New York for Florida, Arizona and Nevada. These are red states.
Some will say it has nothing to do with republicans. People move there because taxes are low. That is precisely what happens when republicans run things!
The debate between Mr. Lachman and Mr. Greenfield was civilized. They are friends, and have debated many times before.
Larry Greenfield is a former Naval Soldier. Mr. Lachman is a lawyer. They are both shaped by their experiences.
Minds were not changed publicly in the synagogue. My views were only reinforced.
eric
May 27th, 2008 at 9:38 am
“Detroit is run by liberals. It has been run into the ground.”
Oh puh-lease! Detroit was run into the ground by Free Trade and the systematic dismantling of the Labor Movement. I worked a few years in the Auto Industry in my 20′s. I know of what I speak. I know Detroit. “Liberals” have nothing to do with the fall of Detroit.
“New York City was dying until Rudy Giuliani took over for David Dinkins.”
New York, like almost all major cities, had been suffering urban blight for years until the nineties. Then a wide variety of factors – from abortion to immigration to community policing – brought the crime down. And remember, Guiliani was no mainstream Republican in those days. And the modern Tammany Hall of Democrats in New York is hardly reflective of the national party.
“Kathleen Blanco cried, Ray Nagin blamed white racism, and Haley Barbour rolled up his sleeves, and got the job done.”
Haley Barbour sleazed out to the casinos to bail him out, and Lord knows he had an exponentially smaller mess than New Orleans had.
“San Francisco is so far gone that more people live now in San Jose.”
San Francisco is one of the most beautiful and successful cities in the world.
“People are fleeing Massachusetts for New Hampshire, and escaping New York for Florida, Arizona and Nevada. These are red states.”
That has nothing to do with why people retire and move to the South. And as we move down here, you can bet we’ll be less and less Red.
JMJ
May 27th, 2008 at 10:27 am
JMJ;
“San Francisco is one of the most beautiful and successful cities in the world.
Its also the most expensive place in the country to live in.
Asthetics and geographics, yea, its beautiful. But the people are a pain in the a$$.
If being chock full of nuts is what you call success, O.K. then.
JMJ;
“Haley Barbour sleazed out to the casinos to bail him out, and Lord knows he had an exponentially smaller mess than New Orleans had. ”
Still, he didnt go blaming everyone and thing and failing in the process.
JMJ;
“That has nothing to do with why people retire and move to the South. And as we move down here, you can bet we’ll be less and less Red.”
Awww B.S. !
You mean to try and tell anyone with half a brain that taxes are not higher in Mass. and N.Y. ?
May 27th, 2008 at 10:35 am
L.G.
“Republicans stand for tort reform and medical liability reform. Lawsuits are the problem. OBGYNs have been driven out of Arkansas.”
And Hawaii.
AL: When Clinton was President, Israel talked to Jordan. With Bush, the Iraq war strengthened Iran, which threatens Israel.”
Will someone please show me how this can be true ?
I’ve been hearing this contradictory crap for a few weeks now.
On one side of the left all you hear is how big a pussycat Iran is and not the threat they are made out to be.
On the other side of the left they are saying we’ve turned Iran into this big behemoth.
May 27th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Anyone who thinks tort reform will cure medical inflation is completely oblivious to the root causes of the problem: We are the only developed nation on the Earth dopey enough to have a purely private healthcare system.
JMJ
May 27th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Just take a look at what drives up the cost.
Its insurance rates and frivilous law suits.
And then again, if you dont want a ‘purely” private systaem, what would a “unpure system look like/
How much government intervention are calling for ?
Some want complete socialized medicine and some agree that the governments role by implementing tort reform is enough.
My wifes OBGYN wasnt even allowed in the hospital to deliver our son because of massive litigation
May 27th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
“Just take a look at what drives up the cost.
Its insurance rates and frivilous law suits.”
Well, you hear a lot of different opinions on this and see a lot of different stats. You also have to look at different states, and different types of insurance. The cost of malpractice insurance, for example, took a sudden jump in 2001-2002. It was not coincidental that the same insurance companies took massive losses on the stock market at the same time. Cerrtainly lawsuits didn’t suddenly double in volume or value at the same time. Tort “reform” (re: the usual eroding of our rights for the sake of corporate profits) will have no effect on costs, will further weaken our freedoms, and will increase the dangers involved in services. It’s a foolish notion at best (I won’t even say what I think of it at worst).
And I don;t think you know what “socialized medicine” is or what universal healthcare proponents espouse. It’s just a single-payor pool. That’s all. You still have private doctors, you still have private contracted claims handling, you have all the choice you want, etc. I have no idea what you’re talking about.
JMJ
May 27th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
JMJ;
“And I don;t think you know what “socialized medicine” is or what universal healthcare proponents espouse. It’s just a single-payor pool. That’s all. You still have private doctors, you still have private contracted claims handling, you have all the choice you want, etc. I have no idea what you’re talking about.’
If we use Canada or Britain as an example, no thanks.
Single payor pool ? Gimme a break.
Thats exactly when the individual takes a back seat anfd the “payor” starts screwing things up.
The same government that handles our taxes and wraps itself up in more red tape and beurocrocy is the same government you want handling your body ?These two candidates are going have to do alot better job of selling this idea rather than just telling us it will come out of our (additional) taxes and that then it will be all O.K. And everyone will be covered.
You want to see rampant abuse of a system?
Just go ahead and make it eligible for everyone who is a taxpayer.
The rampant abuse of our welfare system should give any idiot and idea of what will happen when all of a sudden going to the doctor involves nothing but showing up.
Ha! And you call cons “pie in the sky”?
Why are Canadian and British cancer victims coming to the U.S for treatment?
If that not enough to bring some serious questions into mind , I dont know what is.
May 27th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I failed to include the cost of all the “non tax payers” also.
If they get rid of that problem I could begin to listen to them.
May 27th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
I don’t know any non-taxpayors. To whom are you referring?
JMJ
May 27th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Wetbacks, illegal aliens, transients, fence jumpers and last but not least, fraud.
May 27th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I’m pretty sure they all pay taxes too, Micky. I mean, you could theoretically suggest hermits or people on communes, but pretty much everyone, even little kids, pay taxes. Where ya’ been?
JMJ
May 27th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Pretty sure?
Where have I been ?
No no no my friend. I know where you have been and all I can say politly is that its real close to you and its dark and smelly.
Illegal aliens are responsable for government expenditures that should be used on AMERICANS”
http://www.10news.com/news/9620142/detail.html
Future costs for illegal immigrants in the United States will reach a half a trillion dollars, a Heritage Foundation researcher said Wednesday at congressional hearing in San Diego.
The National Academy of Sciences estimated that each immigrant will result in a $100,000 net annual cost to taxpayers.
Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., the committee’s chairman, said hospitals in the Southwestern United States are losing $190 million annually per year for uncompensated health care from illegal immigrants.
May 27th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Now.
If the left will address this issued the saved revenues could pay for this wonderful medical plan they want to push on us with no additional taxation.
Pretty cool huh?
I should run for orofice
May 27th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Jersey, I grew up in the Bay Area and went to college in San Francisco and you hav eno idea what you are talking about. San Francisco is a beautiful city (although it is pretty much grey 12 months a year) but it has not been successful since the ’50s. People have been leaving in droves ever since. In the early ’80s they had a chance to turn it around but Diane Feinstein barely beat Quentin Kopp in successive elections. It was once the 2nd largest city in California, now it has been passed by San Diego and San Jose and Sacramento is not far behind. It is expensive, has high tax rates and lots of infrastructure problems. Most people have moved all over the rest of the bay area where they can afford to live and commute
May 28th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Good morning, Eric.
After reading all of these comments I had to go back and check to see what your post was about. I guess I’m not awake yet.
I’m in total agreement with your friend, and perhaps a few minds were changed during that debate, or at least a few people may think about things a little more before stepping into the voting booth. At least one can hope. Larry said that the Democratic party wasn’t the party of their fathers. Amen to that! I truly wish more people would understand that.
May 28th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Micky, everyone pays taxes, including “illegal” aliens. Some people do not pay certain kinds of taxes. But in the end, we pretty much all pay taxes.
Parrothead, you’re a free market capitalist, right? So, why don’t you tell me why San Francisco is so expensive?
“Larry said that the Democratic party wasn’t the party of their fathers.”
Yes, Gayle, and that’s why the GOP took the South. Good riddance.
JMJ
May 28th, 2008 at 10:07 am
JMJ;
“Micky, everyone pays taxes, including “illegal” aliens. Some people do not pay certain kinds of taxes. But in the end, we pretty much all pay taxes.’
Dude !
Who do you think you’re talking to ?
Some ignorant elementary teenager with gum stuck to her braces ?
The amount of under the table work paid to illegals is a huge problem.
Please, do some research and get off the moonbat express of ideological crap.
These are the facts bro !
http://www.alipac.us/article1283.html
By Keyonna Summers
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published June 6, 2006
In 1999, the year studied by the District-based Urban Institute, foreign-born households accounted for 17.7 percent of all taxes paid by area residents — a figure nearly identical to their share of the total population in 2000, which was 17.4 percent.
But the average illegal alien household and those with temporary protected status paid less than 2 percent of the region’s taxes, even though they made up more than 4 percent of households.
Illegal aliens “pay fewer taxes because they have lower incomes and because their compliance rate [voluntarily filing of income taxes by themselves or by employers] is somewhat lower than our other immigrant groups,” said Michael Fix, vice president of the Migration Policy Institute. “And their incomes are lower in large part because many have low levels of education and limited English skills.”
Randolph Capps, a senior research associate at the Urban Institute, estimates that about 55 percent of illegal aliens are paying into Social Security and Medicare by using fake Social Security numbers. The remaining 45 percent are not paying those taxes because their employers, who are not filing income taxes, are paying the illegals under the table.
Steven A. Camarota, research director of the Center for Immigration Studies, a District-based group that favors tougher immigration policies, wrote a study in 2004 that found illegal aliens cost the federal government $26.3 billion in services in 2002 but paid only $16 billion in taxes.
Illegal aliens that year created a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal alien household, he said. The costs reflected a burden on government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food-assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.
“It’s not irrelevant, but it’s kind of half the equation, really,” said Mr. Camarota, who estimated that granting legal status to illegal aliens would allow unskilled workers who avoid taxes more access to public services, inflating the deficit to $29 billion.
May 28th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Why dont you answer a question jersey.
If S.F. is so successful, as you say. Would the high rate of taxation and cost of living qualify as a success in your book ?
May 28th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Micky, they (“illegals”) still pay taxes, both directly and indirectly, in the form of payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, tolls, fees, etc. You know: The same stuff you conservatives always complain about.
As about San Fran: Obviously the tax system is working out pretty well there. Personally, I think it’s a bastion of the dangerously rich, but it seems to do pretty well for itself. It is truly “Liberal” in the original meaning of the word.
And yes, that can be a dangerous thing, but you only have your own preferred system to thank for it.
JMJ
May 29th, 2008 at 7:38 am
JMJ;
“Micky, they (”illegals” still pay taxes, both directly and indirectly, in the form of payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, tolls, fees, etc. You know: The same stuff you conservatives always complain about.”
Man, can you read at all?
You keep dodging by talking about the few that do pay taxes when I’m pointing out the majority that dont and the cost of having them in this country compared to what little they contribute to the system they are draining.
Its working out pretty well in S.F. ?
When you just had Parrot , a former resident , tell you that everyone is leaving and the place is falling apart.
My preferred system?
Not at dude, what are you smoking ?
Newsom is putting a “carbon tax” on the 2008 ballot.
You know what that is dont you ? Its environmentalists gone wild is what it is. And Frsico cant understand why everyone is leaving ? Trash collection all the way up to any kind of emission is going to cost more now on top an already ridiculously expensive city. Its just another liberal attack on American business by means of a tax shift.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/12/07/news/state/17_06_3012_6_07.txt