My Mercedes will get me there safer for decades, hell I wish I could buy a Mercedes, it’ll probably out live me
Your Buick will break down god knows when after about 7 years.
If its new, you’re gonna be paying the taxes to keep GM afloat just so your warranty will be honored.

Like I said, its no surprise that you see no need for strong voracious military when you think our enemies are non existential unruly children

JMJ;
“I’m sure a Mercedes is worth every penny, but we don’t all need Mercedes’. ”

See, there it is, right there, a typical socialist example, telling us what we do and dont need.

By the way, since when do you determine what anyone needs ?

JM;
‘It’s not a question of the worth of the forces, it’s a question of whether or not we need them all in the first place. ”

Then maybe you should tell your leftist buddies to stop whining about how under staffed our military is.
(there is no question)

I do think its funny that downsizing the military was exactly why Donald Rumsfeld was hated in many parts of congress and the pentagon. Thats what Transformation and the Revolution of Military Affairs was all about. He challenged the assumptions of the structure of the Military-Industrial Complex

As far as the attitudes toward the military, I still see a lot of it today and by the way it wasn’t only Viet Nam Vets who were treated shabbily it was anybody who wore the uniform. It was not a myth. Today the language is more subtle but the sentiment remains

It’s not a question of the worth of the forces, it’s a question of whether or not we need them all in the first place. I’m sure a Mercedes is worth every penny, but we don’t all need Mercedes’. You want a massive miltary empire? Fine. Enjoy paying for it. You can drive your Mercedes and I’ll drive my Buick. We’ll both get to work at the same time.

JMJ

Once any entity of the government is put in a position to make a profit be it the iltary or the government you give opportunity for corruption like we’ve never seen.
But you’d like that, its called socialism, when the government determines whay is a profitable entity and what isnt.

They are not a welfare state.
The military earns and is worth every penny. The have viability as opposed to the 40% getting refunds that dont deserve them.
They are freeloading leeches.
Our military, no matter what sect or rank is not.

I said, “We don’t need a constantly standing military that costs more than every other one in the world combined to keep us alive. That’s just silliness.”

To wit you said, “We dont need a constantly standing military?”

Now, did you read the second half of that sentence, or did you just black out and hit the floor before you got the chance?

“Our soldiers are part of that “complex””

Actually, no. The “Military Industrial Complex” refers to the institituions involed themselves, not personnel. They are a part of it in that they are dependent on these institutions for their pay and benefits, but they actually do the work for the pay and benefits, unlike the heads of the institutions who make the policy decisions. After all, the MIC is a product of and tool for policy - and policy, in this case, is governmental decision. I worked in the container line industry, but had no say in trade policy. I just did my job and got paid for it. The soilders do not decide what missions they go on, they just try to accomplish the mission. What you guys don’t get about this relationship is beyond me. I guess it’s just convenient (and rather sleazy, if you ask me) to link criticism of policy makers with those who are ordered to carry those policies out. Take people who blame the IRS for taxes, or blame the cops for bad laws. Those people are just stupid. So stupid, in fact, that they represent a small minority of people from various demographics. If you think I’m one of those sorts of people, than you are a poor judge of character.

“How freaking dare you accuse our military of being a non productive welfare state when it protects a holes like you to be able to say that idiocy?”

I never said they were “non-productive.” Just being a part of the welfare state does not make one non-productive. But they are a welfare state - they are completely dependent on the public dole. That’s just reality, Micky. If the public decided tomorrow that they didn’t want such a massive global military empire anymore, all those people would be out of luck, just as with any public institution.

“Our government makes no money either Jersey, and it could stand to be smaller.”

I’m sure it could. And the military would be the fiorst place to start. It’s ridiculous. We don’t need a military presense in a 140 or so countries. We don’t need to meddle in the business of every nation that happens to not want to engage in trade with us. We simply don’t need a military that costs more than all the other militaries in the world combined. It’s just plain stupid. And the first place we should start to cut should be in private contracting! Historically speaking, that is about the most dangerous, corrupting, self-defeating, unnecessarily expensive sort of private contracting the government can do!

Look, only a few loony pacifist hippies living in communes in the woods would argue that there simply shouldn’t be a military. Of course you need a military. Just for the Keynesian benefits alone, setting aside the obvious need for security! But we don’t need the ridiculous behemoth we have now. We need a lean mean fighting mahine, not an unmanageable juggernaut. Heck, we have an unprecedented huge military, and we can’t even finish the job in Afghanistan! What does that tell you? We’ve gotten so big and unmanageable, we can’t even effectively use what have anymore. In effect, we simply have too much! It’s like buying a PC when all you need is a calculator - you gst all the viruses, all the extraneous software, all the programming headaches, when all you really need is something that can add, subtract, multiply and divide. It’s just pointless. In this case, dangerously pointless. Because when you have a huge standing military with nothing to do, they will find something to do - and that’s when you get into trouble. Big. Dangerous. Trouble. Republicans used to know this. Too bad you all forgot your roots.

JMJ

We dont need a constantly standing military ?
What kind of lunacy is that ?
I wont decipher, I’ll put it out there like I usually do then.
Our soldiers are part of that “complex”
Alright BUDDY !
You have contempt for our military, you’ve shown this time and time again with your BS statements that you always try to dress up as something else.
You’ve never really had anything good to say about them in any regard except to make sure you always include you generic meaningless “I support the troops ” statement.
You’ve said before that our guys and gals are “not that educated” and that half of them are basically just drawing a check.
How freaking dare you accuse our military of being a non productive welfare state when it protects a holes like you to be able to say that idiocy ?
And yet you and Obama will love to do nothing more than turn the whole country into a welfare state by proping up every non viable demographic and business there is.

You would think on vets day you could of least kept your insults cloaked with BS away from the thread.

Our government makes no money either Jersey, and it could stand to be smaller.
But of course if you view our enemy as unruly children then I can see why you would think you need a smaller military.
Rumsfeld went in lean and look what happened.
And yet the left takes advantage of that to critisize him but when it suits your ideals you say the military should be lessened ?

Make up your mind.

Okay, so you didn’t support Porp 8. My apologies (seriously - no snark!). I missed that somehow. I actually knew it, but wasn’t concentrating enough when I wrote that sentence. I should probably write a little less extemporaneously. My bad.

I do not advocate enlarging “the welfare state” in and of itself. That would be simplistic.

As for the ridiculous military - I stand by Ike. He was right. History is on his, and my, side. I am not arguing the Keynesian positives of a military. I specifically pointed that out. I am arguing that we have a needlessly dangerously large military empire and it could well be the ruin of us for all sorts of valid, historic, proven reasons. Do you know why I would say that? Try addressing the argument on that level, because if you know any history, you know exactly what Ike was, and I am, talking about.

JMJ

Well growing up in California as an Air Force Brat I can tell you I have met many many who had lots of bad things to say about members of the military in general. This was especially true throughout the ’70s. Democratic leadership just talks about how they are torturing and murdering civilians at will overseas, yet they support the troops while slandering them.

“More needless nastiness that has nothing to do with you, or Eric, or anyone else who suported it.”

Can you read. I have said several times, including TWICE in this post the I voted AGAINST the amendment. Eric said he didn’t vote on it at all. That means NEITHER of us SUPPORTED it.

“Mark my words, like every other great empire in history, that giant, sucking, dangerous, political welfare state will eventually be the end of us.”

How you can say that with a straight face when you advocate enlarging the welfare state for the rest of society is beyond me. These folks are giving away their liberty and putting their life on the line to protect the rest of us. The rest of the defense industry exists to assure they are victorious and return home safely. Are there excesses, of course there are in every industry, but at least this industry’s prime function is to keep us safe from harm. If you don’t think the money invested in defense strengthens the economy and leads to incredible innovations you are very misinformed. Far more so than things like make work projects which didn’t help the economy in the 30’s. It took WWII and the military-industrial complex to get us out of the depression.

Yeah, well, Micky, there are people who think all sorts of stupid things. What’s your point? The vast majority of everyone I know and have ever known have no problem in general with service people - liberal or conservative, left or right, Democrat or Republican, Wiccan or Jewish, whatever.

“Without it you would more than likely be dead.”

Oh, give it a rest. We don’t need a constantly standing military that costs more than every other one in the world combined to keep us alive. That’s just silliness.

“And if I’m deciphering this correctly you are saying that our troops are drawing pay for doing nothing?”

Micky, please, do me a favor - do not “decipher.” I meant that the Military Establishment - the popularly called “Military Industrial Complex” - as Eisenhower warned us, is a very dangerous thing. Our Founding Fathers knew this. Ike knew it. I know it. A lot of people know it. It becomes an entrenched political interest that uses war and fear and a welfare state to perpatuate and justify itself. The “welfare state,” as a sociological term, in this case refers to a constituency that is completely dependent upon the public dole. It makes no money. It is not a viable private interest. Ironically, it is proof of the positives of Keynesian theory. From the military we attain many periheral and direct social benefits, from education, to medicine,, to all sorts of science and math, to infrastructural improvements, etc.

I, like the vast majority of “liberals,” would never argue that there shouldn’t be a military. just that it shouldn’t be so large.

As for that last line - Micky, it’s not me being an @$$. try not to “decipher” what you want and make an honest effort to take me at the correct face value. I’m not a blathering idiot.

JMJ

That doesnt mean that the’re not out there.
I dont know any code pink members, but they’re out there.

“political welfare state will eventually be the end of us.”

Without it you would more than likely be dead.
And if I’m deciphering this correctly you are saying that our troops are drawing pay for doing nothing ?

Its the wrong day to be showing your ass Jersey.