The man apparently can’t take a hint!

People HATE these cowardly computer-generated phone calls!

Enough!!!

Thank you for your help.

http://imustimes.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/jacobs-obama-to-iraq-its-all-eye-wash/

We did not invade Iraq because we thought we could take their oil from them. but it did need to be protected from its neigbors. And how we going to buy any if its getting blown up or stolen all the time ?
Besides that, I think it was more of a military strategy to get a grip on these clowns.
It was all very convenient for some reasons and very neccessary for oyher reasons. The neccesity gave us the justification to take advantage of the convenience.
No matter what, just to make sure our asses are covered we should drill.

“and again domestic drilling in no way can compete with that ratio. ”

What I’ve been saying is that Anwar at full production can cover our needs/demands for up to 20 years. In that twenty years we will of already put many other sources in place.
It will last us 20 years based on todays usage. But in 10 years that usage can be cut in half, and in twenty years hopefully it can be 75% less than what we use today. So, whats coming out of Anwar could actually last 35 years if we start putting alternatives into action ASAP.
And whats to say we wont come up with some other ingenuous form of energy or find other reserves ?

The shale will work. Its just a different process. What we need is more plants that do this on a larger volume, that will bring down cost.
Whats interesting is that the main excuse like you said is the cost. Well right now its actually cheaper to but a barrel of oil frfom shale than it is to but a barrel of crude.
This comparison was drawn up in 2005

“According to a survey conducted by the RAND Corporation, the cost of producing a barrel of oil at a surface retorting complex in the United States (comprising a mine, retorting plant, upgrading plant, supporting utilities, and spent shale reclamation), would range between US$70–95 ($440–600/m3, adjusted to 2005 values). This estimate considers varying levels of kerogen quality and extraction efficiency. In order for the operation to be profitable, the price of crude oil would need to remain above these levels.”

And even if the cost is slightley higher I believe its worth it for security reasons.
We have to remember that we will not be weened from oil for a long-long time. That idealistic dream needs to be shot to the moon already. I remember all this “getting rid of oil” conversations being similar to the wishful dreams from earth freaks in the 60s.
I want energy independance before anything. I really dont care how we do it.
But the reality is that its going to be a while. And in the meantime they’ve (middle east and others)got us by the balls.
And I’ all about nukes. Thats the next most logical think to drilling our own.
Anyway, thats all stuff that wont work for years.
Right now we need to drill, everywhere.
More oil, it becomes cheaper.
Also, I dont think the middle east is going to remain stable (stable as it id now)
We need our butts coverd, first and foremost above anything.

“You please tell me, what the heck am I saying that you disagree with and why???”

I’m tired, my Great Dane of 11 years just passed away, I’ll get back to you.

I bring up the war in Iraq to juxtapose it with the Pickett plan. Let’s face it - we would never have invaded Iraq if they had no oil. We didn’t invade North Korea because the Chinese might lose their cool. We didn’t invade Iran because there was no way to put a happy face on that bloody scenario. We didn’t invade Sudan because even though they have a lot of oil, the North African infrastructure can’t guarentee delivery. We don’t invade Nigeria because they have friendly crooks running the country, for whatever that’s worth.

We invaded Iraq because it was the one oil-rich country isolated from the rest of the world, and hated in it’s own region. We will spend up to three trillion dollars horsing around over there and to this day, 5+ years on, we still haven’t turned a dime of profit from it. Yet for a half or a third of that cost, we could cut our dependence on oil in half in just a decade. It’s a fair point. No amount of domestic drilling could match that ratio and it’s a heck of a lot cheaper than warring in the Middle East.

But go ahead and take the war out of it if you like. That’s still 700 billion American dollars leaving our shores every year for oil. Imports have quadrupled in that past forty years and again domestic drilling in no way can compete with that ratio. There’s no way to turn around that supply/demand problem with domestic supply. Period. Even the oil companies admit that as matter of obvious fact. The only other way to get supply is further importing. Anwar is all well and fine, but it simply will not impact prices on the macro-scale. We should drill and there’s plenty of leases to go around, but it’s not going to make a real difference in the average American’s life. Just remember this: no one is stopping the oil companies from drilling on the vast majority of the places they want to drill. Yet these same companies would rather do business in war-torn Iraq than here. Why? Not because of “liberals” or “environmentalists,” but because they know there’s more oil there than here. That’s the way markets work.

As for shale or sand, coal or whatever, converting these things to standard motor combustibles is very costly and dirty. And it does nothing to ween us from oil.

Look,

We KNOW we have only so much supply.

We KNOW demand will only continue to grow.

We MUST address the demand with a different supply.

Now, you conservatives and republicans, like our good host, the “Wall Street Conservative,” claim to be the masters of capitalism and trade. You please tell me, what the heck am I saying that you disagree with and why???

JMJ

This is in the works as the price right now has motivated us more than usual
People are aware of solar, wind, hydrogen etc.
But we are not going to find our way there if things are not cost appealing.
If it costs us more to transfer over to say solar for example, it will take that much longer.
Not everyone has a few grand to plop a unit on their roof and wait a year for it to give the return.
So then you enter the probability that the fed will start offering tax credits or vouchers whatever. and then you will have an argument over the taxes that pay for it.
————————————————————————————–

“Small government conservatives hate the government ever doing anything, but this is exactly what we need a government to do. ”

Hawaii suffers from infrastructure problems due to the “add on” method.
Its counter productive because the add ons are made of newer materials and technology that doesn’t match up with the old.
Older sections of wiring, water, sewage fall apart due to the stress newer parts put on them. Its a bottle neck dilemma. While the newer wiring and pipelines can handle more volume and handle more expediently the older sections fail.
Consequently our roads are always being dug up monthly, sometimes yearly to repair the old pipes and underground utilities that fall apart after the new was installed.
Our power goes out weekly for about 1/2 because the new grid put in up the street increase flow at a faster pace and its wreaking havoc on the old.

We are looking for trouble if we do it on the cheap.

Unfortunately the majority of the country doesn’t trust the govt. to do anything

Wiring the country with a new grid after and if we successfully move over to more renewable’s or alternatives is one thing.

Your last paragraph starting with virtual commuting all the way to the end sounds like you would have to turn the free market and a lot of basic rights and freedoms on its ear in order to get it to work.

Lets just worry about getting alternative energies in place and off of foreign oil first.
Once again, converting vehicles to natural gas is great. but its the time it will take and if people are willing to incur the cost. When if the car is more than a couple years old I doubt anyone will be willing to do that.
————————————————————————————–

The United States has more deposits of oil shale than anyone in the world.
The Bureau of Land Management says it holds an estimated 2,500 gigabarrels of recoverable oil. But what comes from shale is stuff called kerogen. And this stuff requires certain kind if refining that is not being used enough right now. And that’s why we don’t see all that much production of oil from oil shale. The oil shale reserves don’t meet the oil industry definition of proven oil reserves.
But its there !

And we should start drilling Anwar.

“Reserves: The U.S. currently gets 58% of its oil from foreign sources and this is forecast to hit 70% by 2020. ANWAR reserve estimates are in the neighborhood of 16 billion barrels, which would replace the equivalent of what we currently import from Saudi Arabia”

That right there is what we need to do.
just for the plain fact that as idealistic as everyone is being about all the other energy sources it will be a while before we have them at full capacity.
Anwar can be harvested within a few years. It will take longer than that to get all other alternatives up and running. I would say anywhere from 10 to 20 years before we are using the least amount of oil we have ever used.
Until then, we will need oil. After then, we will need oil. Not as much. but we will need it none the less.
And with Anwars reserves lasting 20 years that buys us a lot of time to bring other sources into play.
Its simply foolish not to drill.

It’s not an “important issue.” It’s a made-up BS issue for the consumption of the uneducated (re: 70% of Americans). No one argues the reserve numbers. We have about the most accurate measuring on the planet. Of our “provable” reserves, we have about enough to fuel the nation for all of three years at current consumption. At the current rate of extraction, we only have about 11 years. So, yes. We do have to explore and drill, and we will. But more importantly, we have to find ways to end our ridiculous rate of consumption. The oil companies have everything they need. They don’t need any more encouragement.

As for the grid, we do not have to build an entire grid from scratch. We simply have to add to it and alter it so that it is truly national - to get the power from where it’s produced to where it’s needed. Small government conservatives hate the government ever doing anything, but this is exactly what we need a government to do. Like the continental rails or the interstate highways, the great dams and canals, only the government - or at least govvernment money and impetus - can build up a truly national grid.

I’ll tell you another idea that Americans need to get through our collective skull: virtual commuting! The old American management midset is still stuck in the brick and mortar world of yeaterday. The service sector is rife with unnecessary commuting. Most of these jobs could easily be done from home (processing orders, accounting, auditing, shipping/receiving documentation, transcription, trading, etc). We need to take the profitteering out of broadband and wire up the country, end the feudal cable monopolies, and let loose the capacity of Americans to work from home. The government could offer tax credits for the software and hardware investments required and American managers need to grow-up and realize the obsolescence of the old brick and mortar workplace. This goes for the university system as well. And also the sales sector. We have to end the taxpayor subsidies for unnecessary travel. All this pointless flying around to shake hands all over the place is wasteful - another obsolete holdover of the old American management model.

And I love Picketts plan for converting vehicles to use natural gas! We have tons of it, it’s clean, and many people could feul up right from home! Why we hadn’t moved in that direction years ago is beyond me.

JMJ

I am for alternatives. But they will take time to get them in place.
By that rime we will still need oil no matter what. We will need less due to the other means we are using, so the 3% will come in handy instead of buying it from someone else.
In addition we have unproven reserves and proven reserves that have not been tapped yet that will deliver more than 3%
————————————————————————————-

If war erupts in the middle east the supply we do get from there will be interrupted. Its happened before even with no war in place.
As the market is right now , consumers just cant take another hike in prices, it will cripple our country.
————————————————————————————-
“We don’t “need” all that oil, we simply want it. ”

Wrong.
All of our machinery and cars will not be tossed just because and even if we brought in all the alternatives tomm.
All cars and machinery that require oil are built to last 5 to 10 years.
We do not want the oil. We need it because we cannot afford to just throw away all these products. It sounds as if you are expecting everyone to just go clean slate with alternatives over night.
Not gonna happen.
————————————————————————————–
“We simply have to do something about it. ”

“simply?”
I see a problem here. It looks as if you think its simple.

It seems that its that kind of thinking that adds to the problem of America not being able to agree on a solution when one side thinks it is or should be simple.
We need to agree on the terms on the convertion and exactly what it will entail and require in materials and time.
So far the answer from the left has been to cut back. Which is stupid because prices as they are have already caused us to do that.
The other answer is the alternatives which both sides support , but this will take time. Of course I should mention that the left does not support nuke.
Works for the French and the Swedes. I thought the left idolized their systems ?
I think once we loose that word “simply” things will be understood a little better and we can actually move forward.
————————————————————————————–
-”You can’t wish it away”

No, but it is not “simple” as you implied. And please tell me whom you know of that is thinking this.
————————————————————————————–
“We have to finally and for once and for all end this stupid love of the 19th century technology of the internal combustion engine. ”

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.
Yes, we need to do away with it. but the facts is like I said above. This technology and machinery will be around for at least another ten years and the whole country is not going to throw away their heaters and cars and factories jet planes and boats or each and every cities mass transit system overnight.
————————————————————————————–
“And the national grid is a serious national security need as well. Any two-bit terrorist could black out a major metropolitan area with relative ease as things stand now. ”

Yes, but first we need to find out what the new grid will be carrying before we just build an entirely new grid for the entire United States of America.
You make it sound as if its as simple as rewiring your speakers.
That would be a huge phenomenal undertaking of biblical proportions.
( I thought you weren’t worried about terrorists?)
————————————————————————————–
“Oil is globally traded and there’s no political impetus to end that sorry state of market-failure affairs. As long as our ridiculous dependence continues, dangerous regimes across the globe have a cash cow to fund their malicious rule. ”

Gee, thanks, but I’m the one who has been telling you this all along.
And its no wonder there are no politics that can fix it.
Well maybe a little bit, the govt. can influence some changes. But the market has usually had better control. Although it did react one way when Bush lifted the ban.
And it went the other way every time Iran farts.
————————————————————————————–
“But no, the silly cons will want to squeeze every last dollar out of oil because they really don’t care about national security, pollution, progress, or the future they’ll leave their kids - they only care about the almighty dollar and how much of it they have in their accounts. Meanwhile, sycophants like you will be pandered by the GOP with silly, inane excuses to continue the status quo. Good luck with that, Micky. One day maybe you’ll wake up and realize that the GOP does not represent you or your interests. They’re just using you. ”

Of course you had to throw in the usual belittlement of the right. I do this to the left also but really not half as much, lets both grow the f**k up and realize that with those sentiments we will never make progress.

The right is most definitely the champions of national security. The last 8 years prove it without a doubt.
We care about pollution. We do not care about global warming(most of us).
I have thought about my sons future, from time to time.
I do not appreciate being called a sycophant, meaning a self seeking fawning parasite/swindler.

I sobered up and realized that the left did not represent my interests. So please, between you and I know for a fact that I spend more of my hours with a clear head than you do.
That was just a little even exchange for the personal attack on me with the word sycophant.

Now, try this.
Even though I’m terribly upset with you for for your disingenuous display of dishonest quotes the other day lets see if we can set an example and actually put together a solution or some sort of agreement on what an ideal scenario for our future energy transference from major oil to alternatives and minimal oil would look like.
I don’t know, I don’t want to do the kumbaya thing, don’t get me wrong.
But I can do one of two things here.
Concentrate on letting you know how wrong I think you are or see if you,re not and maybe two adult men could find a decent idea

“If we drill now we wont have the problems that we have now in 10 years.”

Why? What are yopu talking about here? We only have 3% of the world’s reserves bu we need 25% of the supply - how on God’s Earth could we possibly EVER drill our way around that fact? What planet do you live on???

You conservatives are just plain silly sometomes.

We don’t “need” all that oil, we simply want it. There’s plenty of ways to get off our heroine-like oil addiction. We simply have to do something about it. You can’t wish it away, and you most certainly can’t make it go away with further dependence! We have to finally and for once and for all end this stupid love of the 19th century technology of the internal combustion engine. We have to get wind and wave power on a national grid. And the national grid is a serious national security need as well. Any two-bit terrorist could black out a major metropolitan area with relative ease as things stand now. And the dependence on oil is a national security issue as well. Oil is globally traded and there’s no political impetus to end that sorry state of market-failure affairs. As long as our ridiculous dependence continues, dangerous regimes accross the globe have a cash cow to fund their malicious rule.

But no, the silly cons will want to squeeze every last dollar out of oil because they really don’t care about national security, pollution, progress, or the future they’ll leave their kids - they only care about the almighty dollar and how much of it they have in their accounts. Meanwhile, sycophants like you will be pandered by the GOP with silly, inane excuses to continue the status quo. Good luck with that, Micky. One day maybe you’ll wake up and realize that the GOP does not represent you or your interests. They’re just using you.

JMJ

I’m not gonna turn this thread into the Jersey and micky show by engaging you in a conversation/debate about things that are common knowledge that really shouldnt even happen.
And I dont feel like educating you on anything that you dont want to learn anyway
Iran can influence any number of situations in the middle east right now.
Nuff said on that issue.

Heres an example of why an intelligent adult conversation is sometimes difficult with you

JMJ;
“And drilling takes forever and Nukes takes years to turn profits. If your dumb enough to believe that’s the fault of environmentalists then I’d suggest you study up on free market capitalism., ”

You come out and call people dumb.
Dumb?
We had this debate a few days back and I showed credible and factual displays of how this was true. And yet you refuse to accept anything I showed you as credible knowledge.

The EPA is the largest environmentalist organization in the world. It is also a branch of the US government. So with that in mind its only painfully obvious that its role as a free market player is zilch.
It is the EPA that lays down a majority of the hampering implementations that actually restrict the free market from flourishing. It is solely responsable for standing in the way of nuke energy, not the market.
And then of course you have all the private environmentalist organizations that petition evey damn thing they can to stop progress.
Its just plain stupid to waste any time engaging someone in a conversation about facts when they wont even acknowledge those that are general knowledge.
Once again, try to get this to sink in.
If we drill now we wont have the problems that we have now in 10 years.
Not all reserves take 10 years to get to either.

If things do go south in the middle east and the 10 to 25% that we do get from them is somehow disrupted or compromised at least we will have our own supply to fall back on, because no matter what, we still are going to need oil for decades to come.

It takes just as long if not longer to get all the alternative energy sources up and running. Until then we are going to need oil. People are buying combustion engines right now as we speak.

When Bush announced he would lift the drilling ban oil dropped the next day.
If congress follows his lead theres no reason to think it wouldnt drop some more.

And now you are calling those who have a diiferent vision “unpatriotic”
Pickett has the right idea, yea, cool.
BUT !
We still need oil to come down for now and we will need oil until all these other solutions including Picketts come into play.

So stop calling people dumb and unpatriotic.
Its really not too flattering on your part. And you come off as pretty arrogant and snotty

“You cons have it all wrong on energy.”

The last dem that thought he had it right on energy was Carter.
I dont think anyone with any sanity will trust that the dems can get it right on energy.

You can think what you want. But anyone who reads this blog I’m sure will inform you that I can always back up my claims.

I mean no insult personally.
But if I have to explain something in detail to someone who doesnt get it in the beggining, he more than likely wont get it in the end

Timbudd, you might be right about the “recession,” but you can’t deny the effects of real inflation. The Fed and such may not measure it, but food and gas do have an impact on real life for the majority of people. We can play numbers games all you like, but the real people pay the real costs and these days days those costs are high and the macro-economy is just beginning to feel it.

And drilling takes forever and Nukes takes years to turn profits. If your dumb enough to believe that’s the fault of environmentalists, then I’d suggest you study up on free market capitalism. You cons have it all wrong on energy.

Guys like Pickett are right. He could be the Ross Perot of this election, even if he doesn’t run. You guys better get with the program. Sell your oil and get with us Patriotic Americans.

JMJ